#tlsnotary-chat

this is a way cooler chan tbh

layout save

oops.

like #joinmarket before it got all commercialized

pretty much

oic, so you can launder your dirty cash with no extra fees here?

this channel is actually logged

take your money laundering goes to #bitcoin-otc like everyone else ;)

it's almost like nobody who ever discusses money laundering in public has the first clue how it's done right

1) buy bitcoins with your illegal cash 2) run JM tumbler on those bitcoins 3) sell for cash 4) launder the cash in the normal way

but actually, no.

money laundering is not about obscuring the destination of your money, but rather - its source

and it's not about obscuring as much as it is misdirecting

yep

ie, you need to have plausible deniability, not being a merely reasonable doubt, but beyond an AMLable doubl

so here's how to launder via JM, just because i'd really like btc tx fees to rise by an order of magnitude overnight, if you'll oblige me, O alert lurker / web spider:

1) buy tiny amount of btc, using reputably acquired, properly declared btc

s/btc$/fiat/

2) run joinmarket yield generator with these btc as liquidity

3) ??? aka "run sendpayment / tumbler.py repeatedly, using only your yield generator(s) as counterparty"

4) send taxman and AMLfag pgp-signed tar cvf /path/to/joinmarket/logs

(but only from your yield generators, duh)

hah

so your declared income is yield generator income

5)profit, or ~40% loss, depending on how urgently you need that boat

or just open a shop as a freelance programmer and get 'paid' by bitcoin

or cash, whatever

but yeah your thing will work

though they might ask how you were able to earn so much given that /r/joinmarket says the return is ~1-2% per year

aha, judicioul donations to genuine liquidity providers left as an exercise to the paranoid mobster

lol

"so your declared income is yield generator income" << correct. this is the one and only way to "launder money" via joinmarket.

anybady who claims otherwise has never laundered money! (contrapositive etc are implied in the minds of those who have not yet read GEB)

i thought money laundering was done by buying a pizza delivery biz

or idk, one of those fortune teller places

that are always on the second floor of houses on main streets converted to "offices"

tel aviv has roughly five kawnzillion times as many convenience stores as logic would dictate

they're all run by seedy old men who spend all day sitting/standing just outside gazing seedily about, and would do well to wallsquat a significant percentage of this time

where do they get their illegal money from ?

one day, walking home from grocery shopping at $upermarket (~2x cheaper than aforementioned businesses), flatmate remarkes that momma always told him such shops were all used for money laundering, and it makes perfect sense, given how bored the guy looks

belcher: my guess? hookers and poker

(nobody in tel aviv plays blackjack,or if they do, it's kept on the DL)

so lots of pimping goes on too ?

but the sidewalks are carpeted in business cards advertising massages

i just found out yesterday

literally yesterday lol i feel so naive

that lots of pizza places sell weed right out of pizzeria lol

like, on a walk-in basis.

you'd think they'd limit themselves to the already established delivery infrastructure, but i guess greed always wins.

AdrianG: we were talking about how Chinese rich men get their money out of China, one way to do this, is to go to Macau and gamble your money, and "lose" them

these days the cool kids go 100x leverage long btc

at okcasino / $bucketshop

proslogion: i figured

now just imagine... p2p leverage makes this p2p times more effective

proslogion: ive also heard "buying" ridiculous amounts of whatever from pawnshops in macau right with your union pay card is popular

yeah

and the clerk just unloads a bale of cash right there lol

like how U.S mafias use deterrgents as a form of currency

i doubt this can ever go full scale.

those in power know about it of course, but they cant let every single prole have it too.

that would be unaristocratic.

proslogion: how do casinos actually do it?

you ask them to wire it elsewhere?

AdrianG: that's not for me to answer :)

money still need to be moved by the casino somewhere.

"mafias"? afaiknew this was just individual dope fiends

who'd resell it to convenience stores on a need-to-buy/launder basis

using deterget as cash?

pun intended.

yes, but they also need CNY, and the rich dudes need USD, or they are just a hub for all sorts of people

AdrianG: yes, detergent has many good properties as money

proslogion: maybe in the past. idk. there is so many brands now, its hardly fungible

AdrianG: it's a liquid (lol) commodity in high demand+supply, readily arbitraged, and not that hard to steal (much easier than xah)

*xau

like. some ppl may want to have tide clean.

others - tide blue unicorn farts sparkle

idk

others - whatever the nearest con-venience store stocks, regardless of price

it's also hard to deteriorate, and price is rather stable

thats really really low dollar volume money laundering

so that store is willing to buy it at a slight premium over the supermarket, especially if you deliver totheir doorstep

yeah i guess stores in really ghetto areas may not care

sure

especially if you sell for 50% off because you stole a shopping-cartful from said supermarket

i live in a total insulated bubble

dude so do i, this was on the internet

but those people already deal with everything in cash?

wtf they need boxes of Tide for

http://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-d... here is an article

junkies

proslogion: how do you persuade users tls notary isnt stealing your info?

its open source

i get that

inb4 they wont read it, nobody reads bitcoin's source either

but not everyone is a k3wl hax0r who reads the source of every app he uses.

its not that they wont, most people can't.

AdrianG: tlsnotary uses a set of new TLS secrets for the page authentication, completely independently generated from the password page one

they'll just blindly trust like they always have :)

other than that....

i had ideas like "stealing my money" etc

look how much btc is trusted to joinmarket, even thought i bet only 2 or 3 read the whole thing

belcher: you familiar with SAML

?

AdrianG nope

are there plans to use tlsnotary with openbazaar

?

like a p2p paypal

AdrianG: i suggested it to them, but there wasn't much interest. also, it would only be useful for certain scenarios.

waxwing: i actually have a better idea. forget p2p content.

lets say, you are logged in somewhere https.

and what you see on your screen is valuable to someone else.

you can sell it right out of your browser.

AdrianG: yes i've thought of such scenarios

the classic one would be a financial feed

they can be quite costly

i think latency would be too slow to feed reuters, if thats what you are talking about

but, it doesn't really work, because (a) tlsnotary won't handle high throughput and (b) if someone wants to sell they can just copy it, people will trust it

but regardless of what it actually is, whatever valuable, can be sold instantly

waxwing: i think industrial espionage would be much more profitable than financial feeds

AdrianG: the critical point to remember is that tlsnotary just provides proof of origination. if the thing is valuable, it can be sold in itself.

its not a mass market product like financial feeds, and doesnt not need to be sold multiple times, usually only a few potential buyers, maybe even just one

industrial espionage. yes, i thought of whistleblowing too.

the problem there is based on a technical aspect: you can only tlsnotarize an entire server response.

waxwing: you can sell in real time.

this has unfortunate implications.

it can be traced.

you will have session ids, etc?

yep

hmmm.

maybe it can be solved

yes and no. this is an old story around here :)

but, i guess you mean for that specific application.

waxwing: i like the idea of real time notarization.

AdrianG: bertani 's oracleize.it might be interesting

even if it has to be custom tailored to specific use-cases and cannot be used generically, its still very interesting.

not literally real time of course, but some kind of pinging

the pagesigner oracle design is an important part of it

a lot of technical stuff to understand though to see the value of the design. it's kind of difficult to explain.

i made the shortest possible explanation i could think of at tlsnotary.org/pagesigner.html

core concept is 'blind notary server'