#tlsnotary-chat

look at BitTorrent - for 99% of people they think BitTorrent and they think "free hollywood movies!!!". But there is a percentage who realize it means freedom of speech, sharing hacked Sony files, etc etc, lol

yes they know that now; but when it started, they didn't have a clue what 'torrent' meant

it works now for the average guy because 'torrent' has entered the general vocabulary

my point wasn't to suggest bittorrent was a good name, my point was that marketing a complex system on one benefit is okay

it sounds like "perverse" in the Chinese vocabulary

oh right, yeah, i missed the point :)

were you on the Internet in 2002~ when Firefox was picking up speed?

there was a long time when their main advantage over IE was speed, security, opensource, etc etc but what people knew Firefox for was "tabs"… lol

heh, yeah i vaguely remember that.

yeah, tabbed browsing

i'd say there's a big difference between protocols and products though.

for example, we were recently discussing with ardeva and he wants us to package it so the whole thing is in a browser extension

rather than having the python code separate

for me, as a user, I think of TLSNotary as a product. it proves what I'm sharing is actually my bank statement…

if tlsnotary gets packagaed up like that, it starts to make more sense.

well, it could be a way to think about it

tlsnotary will only work for an 'ordinary' user once there are established arbiters telling them what to do and holding their hands

we keep the protocol under the name tlsnotary

and repackaging it into different products with catchy names

like, normal people (i.e. not developers) only install software to do something they can't do without that software… what can they do with TLSNotary installed that they can't do without it…? prove a HTTPS page is legit, right?

for different purposes

sure, that's a pretty solid idea

or perhaps a specific centralised service set up: a website supporting payments only through banks A, B and C.

waxwing: you found my missing piece of puzzle

i always think we can make btc trading in bitsquare+tlsnotary easier than using exchanges

this is what we need: http://vimeo.com/108138933

I'm worried about when Bitsquare will be available for public use on the actual mainnet - until it is on the mainnet the usefulness of TLSNotary is not there

right, there isn't really a strong connection between the two, but people will only even start looking at tlsnotary after bitsquare is already launched.

back a bit later

oakpacific: missing piece?

waxwing: i want the user to click a button and the payment page pops up, but if there are lots of banks he can't do that

pls expand on that

another cool idea is if arbitrators only allow trades with banks they have accounts with. so you're a Citibank arbitrator, etc.

i mentioned that as a suggestion on the auditor guide

well, the server reads orders from the bitsquare network, to find the best price matching the user's order amount, the "buy now" button is shown on the left, you click the button then the bank's login-page pops out and the destination account is shown

but you still have to manually log in to the bank etc

yes of course

but you can have the extension logging the destination account details, so when you go to the payment page, you can fill them in with one-click

ah, right, that's true. it's a bit dodgy, feels more intrusive and bigger attack surface. but in principle, cool idea.

when you need to fund an exchange account, you need to do that as well, of coz it's difficult than trading

but i see it as an advantage

if large-sum trading must happen with some efforts, the market is much less manipulable

oakpacific: are you up to speed with coinffeine?

so it uses OKPay; fine, i wonder, what are the fees?

waxwing: no,

gotoalberto is occasionally on #bitsquare

OKPay has very low fees

waxwing: does okpay limit the number of payments you make

in a given time

btcll: sure. but we are talking about micropayments here.

i dont think so

oh i don't doubt that it in principle works; the question is (a) how effectively centralised is it and (b) how expensive is it

oakpacific: nomailing just popped up on reddit :)

waxwing: yeah, one of the paysty users

yeah, but only, made a lot of contribs to the discussion back in the day

so, i don't know what the coinffeine fees are, or what okpay's restrictions (if any) are going to be. and there's no software to even test yet.

looks like we just got our first donation: https://blockchain.info/address/35q65MQPVSi9TYM...

don't give up your day job though :)

sweet!

waxwing: i would much prefer a bank compatibility report

oakpacific: yeah good point. if a little negative :)

we still never really addressed the question of *how* people should make such reports. most won't want to do it in public (although sure some people will be fine with that).

waxwing: what happens after spending a long time with you

oakpacific: ouch. ok :)

waxwing: looks like your speculation on the stamp theft was to the point

what speculation was that, i forgot?

did you guys have funds tied up in the bitstamp saga?

19,000 BTCs in a hot wallet is more likely to result from massive deposits following the downtrend

me not

oakpacific: oh that. yeah i guess so.

btcll: no, i don't have anything on exchanges

i only ever used bitfinex to buy and sell. never leave anything on there for more than a day or two.

I lost 15~ BTC on it :(

bitstamp?

btcll: did you deposit on Jan 5th?

well it is worse than that

because I deposited, I think on Jan 4th. Sold to USD. then left the USD on there :(

was going to buy back in a few days later and transfer straight out, but never got a chance :(

? surely you'll be OK, no?

i don't think there would be problems with fiats

well depends what they do

it's only $4,500~ USD

especially pre Jan-4th

but right now I have zero access to it

Jan-5th

oh i see

you can't buy back if the price goes up

yeah getting locked out is horrible, but really unlikely it's lost. just imho.

so there are 19,000 BTCs about to hit the market, but not only thanks to the theft?

I hope your optimism is well placed!

I don't mind if I can't buy the 15 BTC back if the price bounces

I don't mind if I get my $4500 USD out as 1 BTC if the price jumps

but I do mind if I never see my money again :(

oakpacific: i can't see them hitting the market so quick. they're going to have to play mixing games for a while presumably.

waxwing: well depends on thier purposes

if that balance was sent direct to an exchange, would the exchange get hit with a subpoena? interesting. and if it was btc-e, would they do anything?

all kinds of interesting scenarios. what happens if it gets converted to dogecoin? :)

waxwing: oh no

i meant, had the 19,000 BTCs not being stolen, they could have been sold

sorry for the wrong tense

oh so you mean it removed selling pressure? i dunno that seems very unclear.

I think it must be an inside job

why?

everytime bitcoin price crashes, all kinds of weird things happened

George knocks it out of the park! http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rhmsb...

lol

omg he is converted!

Thanks to the Apostle Nathaniel

waxwing: yeah it indeed looks like our rep is on the up slowly

it'll pass soon enough when the bitstamp debacle is over (back to my normal negative self :) )

lol

it's interesting though to compare this reddit wave of 'decentralised exch!' to the spring 2013 wave on bitcointalk. back in those days people were a lot more confused and came up with a bunch of harebrained schemes that didn't really address the fiat side. now we have several projects near to completion.

if bitsquare were already in beta when this happened, it would have been better.

yes

I couldn't agree more

it's a long way from beta I fear :-(

well, hmm, people could just switch to localbitcoins today if they really cared enough. but it's tough, people want absolute security on their bank payment side.

yep, they do

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rhxx... you know what, I hate to be put in an almost Einstein-like position, but why do people keeping making such outrageous claims? To satisfy our hubris?

i wouldn't call it outrageous.

but feel free to do a bit more tlsnotary quoting out there. i started to feel a bit spammy today.

it's like something people would say in a Hollywood movie, in RL people usually go :"I would be happy to be proven wrong but..."

waxwing: i think proving a fiat transfer is always possible under only three conditions: 1. that 2PC can be used; 2. that some form of key-based cryptography is used in the transmission of the content, not even HMAC is needed(of coz in which case the traffic would be unauthenticated, but the same would go for normal traffic) 3. there is no need to log-in again for a new TLS handshake

well, let's say, something like that. but proving a fiat transfer happened is unfortunately not the same as proving it won't be reversed. so it's never 100%. nature of the beast. you're trading IOUs/tokens of trust.

waxwing: yeah, let's say, the possibility of achieving the same two party confidence as in the single party scenario

Hellllllllo gentlements

FH__: hi man

Back from holidays

:D

*gentlemens

*gentlemen

oh well. sorry i'm not native english speaker. lol

hi FH__ happy new year

happy new year guys!

you guys had nice holidays?

i'll be afk for the next couple of hours, see you then if you're still around

sure

i'll be there for sure

non stop

next 30 days

:)

So - can I do anything to help get this moving?

FH__: i think dansmith_btc has done a restartless version of TLSNotary, but i haven't seen him for a few days

FH__: he has some sort of a firefox extension i believe

ok!

he's one of the original coders right?