#tlsnotary-chat

(see the thread starting with pugwash79)

i fear tlsnotary is something people like to admire from a distance :)

why do you say that?

btcll: oh well, you know

a lot of people get quite enthusiastic when they understand the idea

but very few even try testing it once

it's getting a bit better recently, because we made it very easy and quick to install and run

but still very few. i think that's because they don't see an immediate value perhaps.

or they think it'll be too difficult to figure out. not sure.

in the early days we worried they might find it too dangerous, but in those days we were distributing binaries.

I think people should worry about their security, but most don't :(

if you were an implemented part of a trade system that would really boost your usage rates

if we are to examine ourselves, we haven't spelled otu "it's 100 % working and super-easy to use" on any of our pages

oakpacific: i guess so. but i don't see why we should have to add more stuff like that. There is an "install" button. It links to detailed "Install and Run" instructions. Should be enough.

what is a link to your website? is it just the github link?

waxwing: well, if it's marketing there is not something like "should"

btcll: sure, that's true. i'm not surprised that not many are trying it out. but sometimes surprised that such a small proportion of those who actively express interest, go on to test it.

btcll: https:/tlsnotary.org

it's not much more than links to the github really.

but, i should put it in the title here.

waxwing: actually, way more people know about it then those interact with us

the actual documentation is all on the github

can I share my thoughts from a marketing perspective? feel free to take or leave them…

btcll: i have never really been interested in marketing this. we are not selling anything.

but yes i'd like to hear

unless it's "your website is crap". i know that, i made it because nobody else could be bothered :)

I'd rebrand it… give it a name that means something to the average Joe (i.e. someone who needs to use the service who doesn't know that TLS = SSL type thing = secure pages; etc) and get a cool logo/icon to go with it

even a name that is more obvious, like "Online Banking Verifier"

I know what it is, but it took me quite a lot of reading to get the benefit to me as a person

I'd re-focus the wording on your website so you lead with the benefits to the person using it rather than the features. So rather than "provides cryptographic proof without MITM-ing your connection" you could put something like, "Quickly prove you made a transfer from your bank account, without sharing your Internet banking username or password"

your idea about name is interesting, we haven't discussed options much as we thought that that name was very good.

"online banking verifier" wouldn't cut it though, because that's not all it does.

because your product is great. people's understanding of how it benefits them is crap. and until their understanding improves, or their need increases to make it worthwhile, you'll be ignored by most people :(

btcll: for example ardeva.com are very interested in using it. that's not about bank transactions.

I'm just throwing ideas around - I think your name doesn't serve you outside the developer community. don't know what a better one might be tho...

waxwing: i reserve my opinion about the name :)

i think that whole front page could be carefully figured out. i just kind of threw it out there.

if someone wants to write an alternative set of statements for the front page, they could propose it here (or how about a github issue?). i'd for sure consider it.

you've got two choices with a name… either be explicit about what you do (i.e. Bitsquare: the decentralized bitcoin exchange) or be totally vague and expect you'll get big enough that people just know what you are from enough exposure (i.e. Google or Firefox)

Bitcoin went with being explicit…. the name is pretty much exactly what it is, a coin (money) that is digital (made from bits)

your name is explicit too, though TLS and Notary aren't words that the average person is very familiar with

well if you include subtitles then that's kinda cheating :) bitsquare itself is rather opaque unless you make the satoshi square connection.

oakpacific: yes i do vaguely remember that you were concerned that the name is not understandable

also the syllables and pronunciation you didn't like

waxwing: but bitsquare sounds catchy

yeah i'm sure you're both right that such a name would be thrown out from a marketing perspective. to coders it's perfect :)

oakpacific: it's a very standard name for this 'space', 'ecosystem' (yuck)

what we mustn't forget is that tlsnotary is not a bitcoin technology, fundamentally.

waxwing: one thing i think i have learned that there is no reason people don't use our product, if you don't market it, then people just generally don't use it, there are exceptions of coz, but exceptions are exceptions, not the rules

(a) i definitely see the point of why you want to change it but (b) i don't think it matters at all, again the key point: we're not *selling" this technology.

oakpacific: there is no real reason to *use* tlsnotary now.

because it is not hooked up to some trading system. or ID verification system, say.

waxwing: well, OTC, trading

OTC trading

I don't think you have to change your name

yeah fair point.

oakpacific: ^

it's possible to become popular with your current name, just less easy

i won't complain if a new name gets decided. i honestly don't think it matters.

can you suggest to me a few use-cases for TLSNotary too?

oakpacific: we kind of gave up on, let's say, #bitcoin-otc. they just ignored me, basically. the problem is you have to get some kind of trust bootstrap.

like, "Person needs to verify their bank account to prove they sent a payment from their internet banking" is one. but what else?

btcll: well, i think apart from the transaction case, the only other one is using it as a form of ID verification.

e.g. show your address on a bank account page.

obv using it for say, facebook accounts is pointless, as it can be done in other ways.

btcll: prove you have bought porn but not delivered to you :)

oakpacific: if you're not just joking, i find that example pretty confusing :)

so you're looking for a word like "proof" or "prove" or "demonstrate" or something… because that's what your system essentially does? proves info is correct/untampered with?

I assumed oakpacific was joking because I wouldn't understand it in a serious context either, lol

waxwing: you can pay for porn on a site, and they don't deliver to you, usually you would have no proof you have bought it

no it's the other way

more importantly, no proof it's not delivered

btcll: ah i see what you're thinking. yes proof is one component. but it's difficult to get to the heart of it.

btcll: one thing very confusing about it is the three parties' relationship. the auditor, auditee and server.

but it would also work for proving that you owned something like a forum account, wouldn't it? like, you could prove that you own a bitcointalk account with TLSNotary?

auditor and auditee don't trust each other, but both trust the server.

btcll: yes, for sure.

but you can prove that in other ways easily.

by making a post with a predefined message, for example.

so if I wanted to sell my bitcointalk account I could use TLSNotary to prove ownership...

oh sure

btcll: exactly

but I'm just trying to brainstorm other use cases

the difference with reading the address from a bank account is that that information is kept private

like, maybe I could login to a Government system that shows my car is registered to prove that to someone buying my car...?

btcll: yes, that's the kind of thing.

btcll: for example i can prove i am a qualified teacher in this way :)

so i guess you can understand my porn example :)

the porn one doesn't make sense: who are you proving to?

waxwing: well, you can say "this site sucks don't use it"

"i paid and they deilivered nothing"

oakpacific: hmm that's original. yes, but you'd need both the payment page and the page afterwards.

yes

also imagine ebay

it would be very difficult to make a proper proof like that (proving something *doesn't* exist is hard), but in theory it's posible

you buy a unlock code and then chargeback, etc

it's too bad you couldn't build a little demo site for people to use it in a real situation and do a little promo

but anyways, this discussion is not useful if you have no desire to sell/market it

I am very impressed with what I've seen, like I said at the beginning it was just intended as an opinion, not as cause for taking any action :)

btcll: i toyed with ideas like that.

for example, i'm happy to let people audit me and prove my address.

well, a few people maybe :)

btcll: but i hope this discussion about use cases allows you to understand why i phrased it like i did 'leverage the trust in institutions without asking their permission'. or whatever it says.

financial support fund proof for visa purposes

oakpacific: yeah if only right :(

in UK at least the government has very high requirements for the bank statement quality

Well there are two parties who must use this for it to be useful. the person proving something. and the person wishing for something to be proven...

btcll: i don't want to be negative. if you want to market it, or do something in that area, we'd be grateful for the help.

just don't go overboard in that direction i guess :)

oakpacific: that's interesting, what do they check exactly?

waxwing: your balance, and the time since the deposits have been made

oh that. i thought you meant they checked for fakes somehow.

Government departments have very little incentive to change what they accept, as big costs in terms of time/energy to implement a new system, but no cost of them for demanding paper copies of things

and I'm not hearing anything you're saying as negative. If I wasn't so busy myself I would love to help market TLSNotary, but only 24 hours in my days :(

they are concerned that if you don't have money to support yourself, you will go work illegally

btcll: cool. feel free to throw out more ideas re: name. I don't know if it'll get changed, but we do need the outside perspective, for sure.

name change, or no name change, the sooner in your materials you show normal people the benefits, the better. plain english. keep it simple. all that

ok. i thought the 'what it can do' part served that purpose.

waxwing: for foreign banks, they will want them to issue something called "certificate of deposit", which basically freezes your account for a short period

normal statements wouldn't make it

right, that makes sense. but don't you have the same issue with the 'certificate of deposit', then?

there has to be an opportunity in here somewhere....

btw the discussion forum is still infested with spambots lol

i have to keep registration blocked.

waxwing: it has a stamp or something, they need the original, maybe it is more authentic that way

yeah no surprise if we don't use CAPTCHA

they are really quick

i think i'll just shut that thing down. should have done it ages ago, but takes too much effort.

oakpacific: i haven't let them in, so to speak. they just keep knocking on the door every day.

so basically the UK govt prefers a friggin' paper with a stamp to a digital signature. sigh...

btcll: we also had a long discussion about logos. we don't have a logo, you weren't bothered by that?

waxwing: to be fair, the banks providing the proof have to support digital signature as well :)

oakpacific suggested various ideas with seals and stamps. i think if we had a logo it should be something like that.

or maybe a paper frozen in a block of ice, suggest tamper-resistance

waxwing: I think an icon would serve the project well, but I think the main hurdle right now is that people hear "TLSNotary" and never work out what it does…. a fancy logo won't really fix that problem

btcll: i don't disagree, i find your argument persuasive. but i keep thinking 'bitsquare' doesn't tell a person anything either.

(and of course as you said you have 'google' type of names too)

the title of the front page is 'TLSNotary - prove an https page was in your browser' - which kind of does the explaining part, except https is too technical for *some* people (prob not bitcoiners though)

waxwing: I didn't name bitsquare. I'm not a big fan of that name either :P

iNotary

right. i also think it's too bland.

oakpacific: lol

oakpacific: lol

since we mix cases it's better to do it overboard

there's nothing wrong with dumbing it down and letting smart people figure out it does more on their own