#tlsnotary-chat

also i keep wondering how the drug dealers keep their coins untrackable, i mean how do you find so much 'untainted money' to be mixed with them?

it's always a puzzle to me

a couple of ways

i actively read /r/darknetmarkets to understand stuff like this, drugs are a serious real-world use of bitcoin at the moment

one way is to find someone who doesnt care about untainted coins, i.e. localbitcoins traders or something

the other way is to use mixers/tumblers, yeah you get tainted coins back but at least you have plausible deniability

"i was using the mixer because im paranoid about the NSA, not because i deal drugs"

do they also use cryptoexchanges?

yeah thats another way too

mix you coins with traders

also a lot of people just dont mix, especially small users

they just buy btc with their credit card and send it straight to drugmarketplace.onion

so blind cash is basically like cryptoexchanges whose operator cannot find out your money flow

belcher: did those poeple get raided?

nope, as far as is known, law enforcement do not use tracking the blockchain at all

all the arrests have been because of more low-tech stuff it seems, buying the vendor's drugs and profiling their packaging

also many people buy drugs in bulk from the darknet and resell for a profile in real life, they usually get caught the traditional way

belcher: i guess it's because, the luddites in the court still do not acknowledge blockchain as a source of proof

even if they didnt, its still useful for law enforcement

use the blockchain to get a hint, then raid the guys house and find kilograms of cocaine, which is enough to convict

belcher: yeah but in many cases you can't get anything else to get a warrant

thats sometimes why plausible deniability isnt enough, so darkwallet's idea of doing coinjoin tx for everything is good

yeah i guess

i dont know, maybe they sit outside his house, or look at all the mail he gets

yeah, so i dont think the people interested in drugs have much of a problem with bitcoin being traced through the blockchain, its only later we all might get blacklists or something

so fungiblility is important

also tlsnotary

yep yep

all great stuff

directly extend the anonymity set from "all bitcoin users" to "all bank users"

btw just sent a FAST transfer, arrived in seconds

maybe tlsnotary will work best in UK

i think tlsnotary/bitsquare is more for investors / capital flighters

unless bitcoin is banned, then drug users will use it too

right now they dont seem to mind, plenty of them have fully registered accounts at exchanges

even so, i hope it gets used by everyone, the more liquidity the better

yeah

so that's also why the price must rise :)

hey who knows maybe you can convince a few bankers :)

maybe, i wont be talking about it though, its still seen as a bit fringe

i do know that many i speak to hate QE and other things

i guess i might mention it to one guy i talk to sometimes

ex hedge fund manager who talks about "the clowns at the fed"

or maybe some notaries ;)

i dont know any of those

need an example of privacy that everyone broadly agrees with..

coins for buying contraception when your parents want you to provide them with grandchildren..

belcher: well in which case i guess they will either find out or ask you to see a doctor :)

meh, its the example gmaxwell used

its good enough

its just politics really, when is say that people with mentally insert their own personal privacy example

they want to buy VPNs and are in china or something

oakpacific you there?

mind reading something, it shouldnt take too long, its pretty readable

yes still

sure

why not

the writeup of the coinjoin thing

1. what do you think of the idea 2. what do you think of the readability of my text

i think the idea is fantastic

cool

earning riskless fees is always nice ;)

what about the terminology? coinjoin makers/takers

takers might be slightly annoyed at having to pay to mix, but it will surely be cheaper than centralized mixers

plus you get nothing for free in this world, if something has value it is worth paying for

belcher: is there a way to show the fee address in bc.i?

it will be more intuitive

fee address?

miners fee? or this proposed coinjoin fee

tx fee address

miners fee

it gets added to the block reward

so click the block height and it will be the first transaction in that block

yes it does, but

25btc + fees

give me a minute

also i should do some slight research to make sure darkwallet havent already thought of this

it seems obvious to me so maybe they have

but its hard to properly find out

they spend most of their time coding rather than talking on irc : p

sentance i added "The market for coinjoin makers may end up so deep and liquid that three-party or even four-party coinjoins may become easy to organise."

https://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000000... blockexplorer.com is better

what am i looking at?

i am just saying the fee is shown there

ah ok

yeah

whatever, i dont mind

okay so i have two inputs, one for the maker, one for the seller, both are 5 BTCs

its very unlikely they'll both be 5btc

they'll be some ugly number, 5.23754532btc

belcher: right but equal value inputs help with anonymity no?

its not necessary for darkwallet coinjoin

which is a great thing about it, how likely are you to find two or more people with exactly the same sized utxo

as long as the outputs are equal sized, its private

yeah, but if let's say it's the case, then you have three outputs, say two of them 4.95 btcs, one is 0.1 btc

ok

now since the fee size is small, the LE can go after it until it's sold on an exchange

whats the fee in your example?

since those outputs add up to more than 10btc

well, like maybe 0.09btc from the taker

no they dont, whoops

0.01 btc from the maker

oh wait

you are right, it cannot be connected back to the inputs

in your example, one of the owners of the 5btc wanted the spend the entire utxo in one go, with no change

more likely someone will want to buy something for $5 and in btc that is 0.0446523456whatever

but what about the miner, is the miner mining the block able to connect the fee back to an input?

so the maker will also produce an output of size 0.0446523456

oakpacific nope

in bitcoin, miner fee is total input - total output

so in your example, the miner fee is zero

because total input = 10btc and total output = 10btx

yeah, but in our case, it's not the miner fee is it

in that example there the miner fee is zero, so the tx might take a long time to be mined into a block

belcher: yes i knew this

what i want to know is, in your idea

some fees go to an output for the fees

oh another benefit to my idea is that the large amount of honest coinjoin makers makes it harder for the NSA to be the other side of a coinjoin and then use it to deanonymize

yeah, the coinjoin maker fees, which are totally different to the miner fees

the coinjoin fee output

now can the miner figure out which input pays more in creating that output?

the miner could, so could everyone else

i imagine darkwallet will be coded that the maker and taker pay the same amount in miner fee

or maybe the miner fee will be listed in the maker's conditions

if he has really old coins or something..

right, so, if they don't pay equal amount, the anonymity is compromised

yeah, two of the outputs have to be the same size

in your example, 4.95btc

there is no way to tell which address now containing 4.95 belongs to whom

but for the leftover bitcoins going to the change address, you can tell

so that example in my text, https://blockchain.info/tx/c38aac9910f327700e0f...

you can tell the input address 1FDCg is associated with the change address 1231P

but you cant tell if its associated with 1Fufj or 1MUZn because they're both 0.01btc

my proposal just works by modifying the amount of btc going to each change address

how can i change the topic? want to ask if anyone here knows someone from darkwallet

amir used to be in this place a long time ago

gonna hit the bed will think about it tomorrow

ok

ill put a slightly modded pastebin up

and leave irc on all day tomorrow

you can send me your PGP key if you like :)

my fingerprint is 0A8B 038F 5E10 CC27 89BF CFFF EF73 4EA6 77F3 1129

save that somewhere so when we actually want to communicate you know its me

belcher: cool

will do