#selenium

WhereIsMySpoon: do you agree that institutional racism and sexism are things?

sure

WhereIsMySpoon: some people don't, so i was just asking

i also think that advocacy against institutional racism and sexism can go in wildly wrong directions and end up stuffing subtle issues down people's throats like they've just said something horrendous

WhereIsMySpoon: "stuffing it down people's throats" ? do you mean it makes them uncomfortable to discuss these things?

every way I try to word this comes out badly, but in essence, I'm not sure that policing what people say to try and get rid of bias is useful. It alienates the person and makes you look like more of an armchair warrior than anything else

get rid of subtle bias*

obviously, dont go out shouting all black people should be arrested or all women shouldnt drive or some shit

WhereIsMySpoon: I am asking a question, just making sure I fully understand what you were saying

AutomatedTester: no

AutomatedTester: I'm saying that retaliating against subtle bias (based on empirical evidence that has no reason to not be passively reinforced) with a stonewall zero tolerance attitude isn't very helpful

On the other hand, obviously saying nothing isn't useful either

as jim clarified, its a general, widespread issue, not a personal specific one

WhereIsMySpoon: my opinion is not to stop people from speaking, shutting down people never works

let me ask a slightly different version of the question i asked before

AutomatedTester: do you think that a particular person who has expectations of the gender of someone in the tech industry is sexist

WhereIsMySpoon: I believe they have a bias that has subtle sexism

WhereIsMySpoon: e.g. "Hey guys"

oh, this is a good one

on a side note, Trump wants to stop freedom of speech :-P

lucast: burn the flag!

he's also gonna sue everyone for slander

hm

he has the best lawyers

lol

isn't 'Hey guys' grammatically correct if you are not aware of genders? or are you saying that is also sexist

maybe its just the word

his lawsuits are gonna be hweeedge

lucast: guys is a gendered term

I think that saying someone "is sexist" or "is racist" has bigger connotations than it sometimes really means

AutomatedTester: not always

i dont think specifics of terms here matter much though

lets just take AutomatedTester's point :)

lucast: there's a movement afoot among the grammar cognoscenti to no longer default to the male pronoun in the gender neutral or unknown case.

it is a gendered term, but to my knowledge (at least in US English), you use the male version if you are talking collectively and it isn't just females

aha, well that's good indeed jimevans

WhereIsMySpoon: can you give me a reason when its not?

lucast: i believe the latest AP and Chicago style manuals reflect this, but i could be mistaken.

"Hey Ze:

-: +"

we could even expand out his point and say that even if "hey guys" isnt always gender specific, it is enough to make women feel excluded when its used sometimes

hey, y'all.

I've often used "guys" to include women. But, it doesn't matter my intention in using it, it matters that some women might feel unincluded when I use it.

which is enough to argue against using it

I'd have to look, haven't checked it at all since I was taught that in grade school

careful, if you use ya'll you will be labeled a Trump loving redneck

"y'all." american southernism to the rescuel.

XgizmoX: i see you've read becky chambers too?

titusfortner-sl: exactly

I will never use y'all

Things come across my news feed from time to time :)

i use y'all sometimes; and i live in nyc

ive started to think in "y'all" sometimes

ive even said it once or twice

and im british

its from interacting with all you americans

y'all is a nice contraction for you all

titusfortner-sl: i'm disappointed then. it's a perfectly good linguistic structure that english as a language lacks (second-person plural)

and unlike what you'd gather from hollywood, it's not used in the south to refer to a single person.

question: is see you all (see you contracted to cya often) contracted to c'y'all?

:P

or maybe just "cyall"

or cy'all

jimevans: oh, really? I thought saying y'all could be singular, more when expressing frustration

WhereIsMySpoon: not generally. or at least, not correctly.

:)

That's more of a "bless their heart"

I'd say typically when i hear someone say "Hey guys" they also add "And gals" if they notice other genders are around, but I also live pretty far north

shame on you lucast for projecting binary norms

well, if i knew what else to throw in there i would

can someone enlighten me

well you can't really

I try to stick to "Hey everyone" or "Hey everybody"

"Hello everyone" works

or a "Hey y'all" :P

:yt hey everybody simpsons

The Simpsons - Dr. Nick - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_w_n-8w3IQ

Ze is supposed to be the thing now isn't it?

never y'all

NEVER

XgizmoX: not really

not in common usage at least

Depends on what world you live in I guess...

ze sounds german

XgizmoX: that fight has been around at least 20 years.

hey <people, everybody, folks>

it maybe be a technical term for it, but theres a big gap between "technically correct" and "in common usage"

Really? I see the discussion coming up more and more

I thought y'all could be seen as singular and "all y'all" was plural

thats how my Texan friend seems to do it

AutomatedTester I see what you did there

Heh

he is the best Texan I know

so my laptop just ran out of memory

Would you say you know all the Best Texans?

XgizmoX: the best

XgizmoX: he also has a good brain

jimevans: try 1800s

XgizmoX: isn't that an oxymoron ;)

the best brain

And me

The best brain

yes

XgizmoX: he is VP of Engineering at some health startup in SF

oh, cool

There it is

AutomatedTester: all y'all i thought was more a dialectical thing and not that common

but i could be wrong