#pyramid

dowwie has disappeared?

Then I can't answer his question.

dowwie: I don't have concrete numbers, but many users upon turning on HTTP2 said the site loaded faster. Looking at web inspector, things are being delivered faster as well, becuase JIRA/Confluence are very heavy when it comes to assets.

small tiny assets.

interesting

is anyone here familiar with emacs po-mode ?

No, I am not familiar with that utility of the emacs operating system.

I kind of see both points of view on the trypyramid.com site. Hello, world is not particularly idiomatic. The snippets now presented seem too unmotivated. Much as a dread to say it, I think there needs to be a "mission statement" before the snippets.

Is it possible to have multiple invoke_subrequests under one parent request-driven function?

mermin: yes, you probably want to set use_tweens=False

And although it is not really possible to expose via snippet, I think Authentication and Authorization need to be mentioned.

raydeo: thanks for confirmation

Is there any CRUD system for pyramid that is actively maintained?

Something to wrap DB models in a REST API system

yes

MasterGberry: https://websauna.org

MasterGberry: there is no REST yet, but there is CRUD

MasterGberry: we are working on React interface

behold my latest creation of evil http://pyramid-sms.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

let's design trypyramid.com by committee!

i strongly believe that emphasizing one thing is the wrong thing to do

i cri

pyramid can be used in many ways by many different audiences

the main page is not the place to throw the kitchen sink at them, it should have one or two examples and then point the user elsewhere

those are examples, not a kitchen sink

where is the hello world :'(

in context in docs where it should be :)

who is ur target audience?

MasterGberry ah, now you start to see… ;)

that's an excellent question

one that has been debated many many times

ultimately there is no single answer

the way i came to pyramid was searching python frameworks, finding that reddit uses pylons, and said sure why not it seems fast

but a normal user would probably search for something that seems very simple at first

so depending on where you are, the best place to go is into Resources: https://trypyramid.com/resources.html

with complexity as an option

also depends on whether u expect them to be fluent in python or might be learning it

MasterGberry exactly

e.g. i came from the dark language of php

and i would say the home page is kinda of intimidating

for a guy who doesnt know much about web design or python

i can relate, coming from an unknown language of Lasso

Very simple

MasterGberry and that might be a desirable side-effect

do we want all the newbs?

do we want to be like Django and Flask?

i've recently been introduced to this "cone effect" where my company is trying to funnel in noobs and make them into better users

I dont know, do you?

i don't want drive-by newbs

i want newbs who know what they want, rather than those who try a "hello world", and think "wow, that was easy! everything else will be that easy, too!"

Maybe start off the home page with the simple hello world system of a basic request/response and then from there have some arrow-options or something for "templating" | "databases" | "REST API"

like 3 branches

and show a few simple add-on pieces

and then let them start digging through the documents

just a thought ofc

think there is way too much text on the page atm

stevepiercy: even as a seasoned developer I evaluate most decisions by how well the api scales down to the bare essential before I investigate what else it can do

side note: concepts are hard to represent on web pages

if "hello world" gets added by someone in a PR, then it must include some kind of disclaimer to the effect of "Even though this one-file app example demonstrates how quick and easy it is to create a simple request/response web application, it s not scalable. Experienced developers write web applications by reading APIs and documentation, and as demonstrated in the tutorials and cookbook recipes."

oh, and MasterGberry, perhaps you missed this: https://trypyramid.com/resources-extending-pyra...

stevepiercy: you sound pretty frustrated, I guess I haven't seen whatever conversations you're referring to where hello world was decided to be removed

raydeo true. my frustration stems from:

* where was everyone when this was originally discussed?

* why did i do all this work, only to have it refuted?

* where are the PRs?

* did anyone read the entire thread in that GitHub issue?

stevepiercy: i saw the page, sadly cant find what im looking for currently, might have to try mixing stuff or making something new

MasterGberry what are you looking for?

a REST wrapper for models, it doesnt seem like there is anything direct, everything u have to build something out of a restful service

What i used in the past for work: http://www.django-rest-framework.org/

try filtering the packages by API and Services

i get 4 packages

err, i guess i have the wrong name for it

stevepiercy: honestly no one is going to do the work, that's why you're doing it of course

as I read the comments in that issue you don't seem particularly interested in input... it sounds like you have your mind made up from the start to kill hello world and dive right into features

stevepiercy, I certainly can't blame you for being frustrated. Yes, I did read the discussion. I agree that hello world did not add much to the discussion.

But, features without motivation are just kind of confusing.

the goal of a marketing site is to show how easy it is to get started and also provide a list of more advanced features (such as your snippets)... learning how to get from one to the other is not the job of that site

raydeo there is backstory, including https://botbot.me/freenode/pyramid/2015-12-19/?...

linking to things that will teach you how would be great of course

ok well conversations in 2 places isn't helping obviously

yeah...

i mean, that issue came about from the IRC discussions

my fault for not linking to the conversations

we're engineers but it seems as if "process" has gotten a little lost in the goal of making this site

i'm not dead set against changing the home page, but putting hello world as the emphasized thing is more wrong than the current "look at what you can do" emphasis

it's a website... it needs an audience, it needs a goal, and it needs a design... unfortunately I see a lot of knee jerk pivots

it's hard to keep up

well I firmly believe otherwise, so talking definitively to me about how "it's more wrong" without backing it up isn't exactly constructive

you're alienating the help with such comments

i'm saying it's all wrong, there is no right way

so let's just burn it to the ground and make it redirect to flask

i take that back

i'm saying there is no one right way

and emphasizing one right way is the wrong thing to do

I don't have any skills to help design a website over irc unfortunately... we can do something at pycon but otherwise we need to come up with a better process

trypyramid is in fact two ideas that were merged together and it seems in the end everyone want it to be something different :(

it feels like everyone is talking over each other with no common ground in sight... that's either because no one is willing to compromise (unlikely) or rather that no one is effectively communicating their idea

it's more the latter

so instead, stevepiercy heroically does some work and then we rip it apart with knee jerk reactions

I come to praise stevepiercy, not bury him.

it started with paul and me to have an entry point for pyramid targeted about decision makers

i think MasterGberry was on to something

I personally also see it as a funnel

i kinda like the idea of restoring the hello world, but i just don't know how to do it well

then goodwill and steve did an entry point with the hello world snippet to have people get started quickly

starting off with barebones hello world and some examples of features you can add to it

On an intro landing page it seems to me, that there should be a "what makes it different, what makes it better" summary.

and we figured out that a single entry point would be better

Anyone know a good online ms paint?

on a mac atm lol

yeah, and hello world is a total turn off to CTOs or CFOs

What is now there is a large part of the story, but the story itself is missing.

stevepiercy: https://github.com/Pylons/trypyramid.com/pull/101