##ebay

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That too.

can you change it with out registering again?

Yes.

nice

It's your "display name" I think.

oh yeah

how much does it cost to certify your coins badon?

dothacker: It depends on the coin, and what the quantity is. It's usually in the ballpark of $20 if it's a small lot of coins, once you factor in shipping.

It has been a while since I have submitted something for grading, though.

dothacker: It might be easier to go through a dealer, and have them submit your coins for you.

Any authorized NGC dealer can do that for you.

that little? Hmm...that's good. Might be worthwhile to put my manufacturing eye to use on some uncertified auctions in the future

dothacker: Oh yes. I have a manufacturing background, and it really helps me see flaws on the surfaces that most people don't notice.

bbs brother just came back, might be picking up the new kitten now

then I only run the risk of metallic fakes, which require a chemical test

I did a lot of high end manufacturing.

dothacker: If you have a known genuine coin to compare to, it's not a problem.

I went to school for it and had a job as a moldmaker

Oh, you're all set. Molds are among the most sophisticated manufacturing work, with high standards for the surface finish. You will notice every flaw on a modern coin, if you were good at your job.

provided quality of photos, that is

You can't see that degree of detail in most photos.

But, with ebay's awesome return policy, you can ask about problems, if they go through with shipping the coin and it still has problems, it's their problem.

though, I'm not sure yet what are tolerable differences for coins. I mean as the dies wear down, there will be some scratches, less shiny spots on curved areas, less sharp corners, and maybe small scratches or dents

You will learn.

Die wear doesn't count against the grade in most cases. What you will see is marks on the coin that didn't come from the die.

my goats look good for 69s though I haven't examed them that far

*examined

I think I underestimate my level of sophistication sometimes. You have a lot of advantages, but it might be overly encouraging to say this will be easy for you. You will have to study to get up to speed, since coins are a kind of metal working you're not familiar with yet.

You need a 10x Belomo loupe.

I'll get you a link.

I think when I get my first 70, and compare to my 69's, the difference in grade may be more clear

I will have to take all 4 of my 69's when the others arrive and get an idea of 69's "range"

This is the best deal: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0...

Yeah, these coins are kind of expensive for that. I went through about 200 coins before I felt like I had it down.

it will give me a better understanding than I have now, on the bright side

I sorted everything by quality. I had all certified coins, and I would compare them 2 at a time and decide which one was better. When I was done, I could easily see how the pro graders had lined-up each grade, and I could see which ones were undergraded or overgraded. The PQ 69's are "premium quality", and I like those.

Yes, you have something to play with now, which is good. If you get the opportunity, buy like 50 to 100 pandas or something and send them all in for grading.

I know some awesome tricks for getting the highest grades out of them.

so if you feel a coin is *graded, could you have ngc recertify them?

Yes.

If it is undergraded, you just resubmit it. If it is overgraded, sell it quick before anyone notices, haha.

In my experience, undergrading is much more common than overgrading.

but you run the risk of getting a bad grader and it might come back lower, no?

Yes.

in which case, you send it back once more?

You can always have NGC "review" a grade.

Right.

I'm really good at grading, so I know what a coin is going to get most of the time.

For you it will take some practice.

is it free for them to do, since you mentioned their warranty thing a while ago?

No, that only applies to coins you bought certified that are overgraded. If it is overgraded, they will compensate you for the difference in value. The best trick I have for that is to ask for the compensation in the form of an account credit that you can use to get more coins certified. They love that.

hmm...and what of these tricks for getting higher grades out of the same coin?

The grader's job is to basically sort the coins you submit by grade. If you sort them for him, from worst to best, he'll keep assigning higher grades until he gets to 70. What's better than a 69? A 70 of course, So, if you a lot of really nice 69's, and then you have a bunch of coins that are NICER than a really nice 69's, they'll get 70's. If you submitted the same lot unsorted, the best coins would just get 69's.

I got some of the only known 70's that way.

It has been almost 3 years, and they are still the finest, only known 70's.

I bought a bunch of coins that were notorious for crappy grades. I picked out the best ones, sorted them, included a few dumpy ones at the front, and sent them off to NGC. Bam! I got 1 single 70 out of 100 coins, and that one 70 is worth more than all 100 combined, possibly, probably, maybably.

you mean sort them into separate ziplock bags, perhaps each coin inside one bag inside the group bag?

Right.

I numbered each and every one.

It's a lot of work. I spent a week doing it.

But, the pro graders could zoom through that lot in 10 minutes. And that makes them really happy, so they're even more likely to give a 70 when they're happy.

yeah

have you considered getting a job as a sorter? Likely they make big $$$

What takes me a week to do is child's play for the pros. I came to really respect how talented they are after that. I can do the grading as well as they can, and better, but it's the speed that makes them the pros.

Yes, I could do that.

Actually, that's a great idea.

I've already done it!

I couldn't afford to buy 100 coins at a time like that, so I made a deal with a local coin dealer. I would do all the work and get him some great stuff that he didn't have the expertise in, and I get first pick of any coins I want.

I've done that a few times, actually.

He made a ton of money off of me.

I wonder their pay. Must be up near $50/hr as an NGC employee

And I got coins that are impossible to get.

I wonder if I have any local dealers

Oh, pro graders get paid decent, but it's a tough job, I would be miserable.

Grading is ridiculously boring. Those pros are great at grading, but they can handle the boredom. That's a rare combination.

how could you be miserable? You'd get to see and touch coins you'll never get your hands on or see and you'll learn to be so much better with coin business just from encountering so many coins

They are judged in their work based on speed. That's why they're so thrilled when you send them 100 coins that takes them 10 minutes to grade. Normally it would take much longer. I calculated they could do it in about 2 minutes per coin.

You have no time to enjoy the coins though. You have to blaze through them as fast as you can go.

You know what they say, if you want to start hating your hobby, turn it into a job.

but yet lay a critical eye on them. An hour of that is worth more to you than a year of ebay auctions

Pro graders are basically failed coin dealers. They're good at grading, but not that great at business. That usually means they're not brilliant thinkers with wandering minds, which helps them handle the boredom.

dothacker: True, but the graders are forbidden from engaging in business with the coins.

So, they get the worst of both worlds.

The only thing in it for them is a steady job doing something that they hate less than manual labor.

And it pays better.

hmm that is tough then

Yeah, it's miserable.

That's why NGC and PCGS are really in business to compete for hiring graders.

well, your local arrangement is a nice deal at least

Yeah, that's pretty sweet. I'm really well placed in this business though, being kinda sorta famous.

I doubt coin dealers would let joe bloe handle all their coins without knowing he's some special high-falutin' expert, you know?

that makes you more valuable to a local dealer, better chance of getting those awesome first picks

like me, I wouldn't even know how to present something like that. Would they take my critical eye and experience in the field at face or how do you prove yourself?

The dealer I was helping earned a $14'000 profit at a time when everyone one else lost their shirts when the market entered a temporary decline. He was smiling about that. It was because he got better grades, I found all the rare varieties, and new varities, and I invested my own money in his business too.

They might let me sort out their worst coins and see how they come back, but as worst coins, it won't be an impressive result regardless

I proved myself by telling him what my secret online identity is.

I also bought and paid for office space that he had a key to, where I kept my coins and his coins, and my coins were worth more than his.

It was a pretty sweet deal for him.

It would never work unless it were really juicy like that.

And I delivered on all of my promises and then some. He's probably the only dealer that didn't lose money when the market declined in 2012.

I picked my favorite coins, and he took all the rest. All premium quality, heavy on the 70's, and all bought at dirt cheap prices.

well, there's little to lose on the dealer's side. Worst case is they don't come back what I say they do but some will get a better grade just for being presorted

Did I give you the link to the belomo loupe?

you did

OK, cool.

that one comes with the lanyard, and you really need the lanyard.

I actually use my dslr as a magnifying device fairly often. My macro lens does wonders, and then I can document whatever I'm examining as I'm doing it lol

Once you have experience, you won't need it.

I did all of my grading without a loupe at all.

The only thing I need a loupe for is figuring out whether a market is post minting damage, or a mark on the die or caused by striking. Oh, and varieties too. It helps for finding rare varieties.

MAybe a few other things too. But generally, grading does not require a loupe.

I was pretty curious on how tiny these imperfections you're looking for were, when you mentioned a loupe

IN the diamond business, their philosophy is if you can't see it at 10X, it doesn't exist.

NGC's policy is set at 5X.

good to know

so tell me about these varieties

For you, you will need the loupe to characterize surface finishes. Someone without your skill would benefit much less.

dothacker: which varieties?

all about varieties

Did you see me and kn0wledge talking about the god of war & wealth and the god of longevity?

You can see some side-by-side images of some varieties.

If you want something a lot more challenging, look at the varieties of CCT666.

you mentioned something about claws, so I'm presuming varieties are oddities caused during manufacture, like an upside down die, or a polished off claw, or a mistake in the die like a die pressed too deep or something

Varieties are important if they're interesting.

They can originate in different stages of coining process, but some stages are more valuable than others.

Design changes are pretty major, even if the look of coin doesn't change much.

and how do you determine which are valuable or interesting?

I think I might have written something about that.

My favorite method is the telephone test. If you can describe it to someone looking at the coin, and they can use your description to find the variety, that passes the telephone test.

A variety that can be named is also a good sign of importance.

You will notice that CCT666 has mostly numbered dies, not catchy names. CCT2 has catchy names like "clouded claw" and "clear claw".

yeah, fairly descriptive

have you heard of the 3-legged buffalo nickel?

I have

It would be a lot less memorable if it were called the "excessively polished lower reverse nickel".

The 3-legged buffalo nickel is classic for passing the telephone test and the nameability test.

I need to finish writing my book.

how do you know when you're taking varieties too far? For example some people collect pennies with a very deep outer border

It depends on the context.

If there are 1000 nameable varieties, and they're all expensive, that is going to be difficult for collectors to focus on.

If there are 6 varieties, and the price is such that it's not impossible for someone to complete a set, or at least come close to it, that's approachable.

The extremely high mintage of fiat coins is part of the reason they lose their collectibility. With thousands of varieties, people just stop caring.

When you mint 10 or 20 billion of them each year, there are always going to be a lot of varieties.

right

yet there are still people who examine every single penny or dollar for even the slightest smudge or misalignment

Right.

That's usually a sign of a mature market. In that case, most of the varieties may be recognized and collectible, but they don't necessarily cost more money.

I used to check my pennies. Every once in a while I still find a wheat penny, but compared to these coins, no amount of wheat pennies will make what my panda will