#dat

creationix: also, VERY COOL

this paper? https://github.com/datproject/docs/blob/master/...

yea

but its a bit thin on technical details

also should I target current dat or the new HAMT based stuff?

target current dat

i'd get the hypercore layer working solidly first if i was you

thats all the "hard" stuff

creationix: luvit, would that be in C or lua?

both

C for when needed

lua for most stuff

luajit is crazy fast for this kind of stuff when done right

if you have protobuf, varints, flat-tree working you're quite far

and it has built-in ffi as part of the jit

creationix: that's v cool

I'm not a fan of protobuf :/

but as long as your structure is stable, I can just write a manual codec

mafintosh: do you use protobuf anywhere besides the hyperdrive entries?

maybe in the hypercore signatures or something?

creationix: only for hyperdrives entries and in the wire protocol

nothing advances

you can easily handroll the codec

nothing crazy haha

awesome. I just don't want to add protobuf as a dependency, it seems too heavy

I wonder if I should use libsodium instead of tweetnacl and blake2 reference

thats what i would do

tweetnacl is tiny (44.6Kb) https://github.com/creationix/lit-tweetnacl/blo...

we use xsalsa20 from libsodium as well

I think that is in tweetnacl. The only thing I've found missing so far are blake2 and siphash24

I'll see how small libsodium is though, it's not huge like openssl at least

the shared lib is ~800kb

hmm, larger than I would like

does it allow TLS server and client though?

because then I could drop openssl and/or mbedtls

nope

but its contains really fast impls of the methods though

creationix: sorry, 400kb

was looking at the wrong file

ahh, much better

My goal is to keep the binary part under 2Mb if possible

luvi core is about 1Mb (luajit + libuv + zip asset loading)

libsodium is the only larger thing you'll need

libutp seems tiny

I might not even need C for the DHT stuff. I assume I can do that logic on top of udp and utp primitives

same for dns

and mdns

yea utp is tiny

tls is always the hard part when designing these things

the dht client is tiny as well

what do you need tls for?

https

i mean, what do you need https for?

I want https gateways like dathttps

ah got it

also need https client to make lets-encrypt calls

and wss for browsers

creationix: btw, did you see this https://github.com/mafintosh/wast2js

though I might end up needing something to speak webrtc datachannel

mafintosh: yeah, that was awesome.

that will help make the node/browser versions trimmer

yea no deps needed now

creationix: if you find a good way to do webrtc datachannel it'd be heaps cool; think the best people are doing in Node now is shelling out to Electron 😱

e.g. nobody can get the chromium source to compile well enough standalone haha

yep, I've looked at it before, it's not super easy

there is some c libs now

but i'm not sure how tested they are

easiest probably is start with the spec and build it from scratch using existing C libraries for the primitives

DTLS, SCTP, etc.

or test one of the new C libraries you mention and improve it

yea

it's not as clean as utp, but browsers can speak it!

yoshuawuyts: my idea for a hack was headless chrome speaking websocket to a local node process

similar to the electron method

but headless chrome is too heavy for our hardware I'm sure

we're based on this SOC http://espressobin.net/

unfortunately, without the Topaz Network Switch and 2x GbE Ethernet LAN ports :(

I'm trying to get them added into the next design so we can sit in place of the router and not worry about NAT issues

you need nat hole punching on your hardware?

ie. you cannot just use websockets?

creationix: dat://b31d07a6e90709759f200cc9a233085904480dec4415258cc0deac2064cba71c/dat-implementation-guide.md (wip)

mafintosh: thanks!

nothing much there yet, but i'll try to fill out more and more blanks

still resolving though...

so the current design is a device that connects to people's existing routers inside their lan

it's hard to expose that as websocket to the public internet

but holepunching techniques get around that for most cases

but if we were directly connected to the modem, then we could just listen on port 443 and do websockets that way

asking customers to do manual port forwarding is probably too much. We're going for non-technical users

upnp is disabled by default on most devices because of security concerns

holepunching only works in browsers if it's webrtc data channel

mafintosh: weird, CLI dat found 5 peers, but beaker couldn't find any

creationix: using a newer beaker?

yep

v0.7.3 OSX build

hmm, I think my beaker is just broken, I can't go to any dat urls

@pfrazee ^

creationix: example url?

it can only find peers on my lan

nothing on hashbase works?

pfrazee: havn't tried hashbase yet

creationix: try dat://todo2-summit.hashbase.io/

but dat://b31d07a6e90709759f200cc9a233085904480dec4415258cc0deac2064cba71c/ and dat://beakerbrowser.com/

they do work if I manually clone using CLI and then sync. It can find 1 peer then (my local one)

neither of those work?

what version of OSX?

the hashbase one doesn't work either

creationix: what macOS version?

OSX 10.12.5 (maxOS Sierra)

pretty old hardware fwiw

MBP 15 Mid 2012

ebay special :)

heh nice. I dont *think* that'd make a diff

well maybe the network hardware has issues with udp or something

you never know ;)

my first thought is that utp-native is failing again, but if you cant load things off of hashbase then tcp is failing too

I just figured official beaker build on latest OSX would be the most tested combination

it is

let me try on my linux box to see if it's a network thing

https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/using-beaker/tro... check this too

firewall is off

ok

creationix: try opening the app from the CLI and see if there's any errors

open /Applications/Beaker\ Browser.app/

oh no that's wrong, 1 sec

yeah, no stdout that way

looking for how to get it...

` /Applications/Beaker\ Browser.app/Contents/MacOS/Beaker\ Browser`

I tried that

you get stdout?

hmm, not much, just:

2017-06-28 10:56:07.865 Beaker Browser Helper[6396:95459] Couldn't set selectedTextBackgroundColor from default ()

pfrazee: btw, we fixed the old osx issue if you reinstall

mafintosh: did you have it auto-fallback to webasm?

pfrazee: yup

mafintosh: nice

creationix: I cant figure out where the logs are going

hmm, I'm getting similar timeouts on linux

and the `npm start` logs are pretty quiet

creationix: you build linux off master?

yes, but the last commit was the 0.7.3 release

43137...

creationix: yeah. do this real quick: `rm package-lock.json; rm app/package-lock.json; npm run burnthemall`

ok

creationix: then try linux again and lmk if it's still off