#django

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      • FunkyBob
        nlh: he did suggest that y/day
      • AntelopeSalad
        nlh: because i don't feel like i'm qualified to do the job
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: you seem intent on misinterpreting much we say
      • AntelopeSalad
        but FunkyBob said he is
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      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: sure, I'm capable of fixing a great many bugs and tickest on django... as are many people here
      • but the primary motivations for fixing are (a) kudos, and (b) itch scratching [not in that order, necessariy]
      • AntelopeSalad
        so, why not start a fund raiser to improve runserver, if you don't get at least 20k from it i'll eat my hat
      • FunkyBob
        the last fundraiser was to merge migrations into the core... now THAT is a big, popular item
      • mattmcc: do you remember how much that got?
      • AntelopeSalad
        it got $30,000 US
      • and it took over a year
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      • mattmcc
      • FunkyBob
        and he was working from the experience of having developed South already
      • mattmcc
        Fully funded in a matter of hours.
      • FunkyBob
        now, that is a MAJOR MAJOR feature...
      • AntelopeSalad
        well...
      • FunkyBob
        you're tlaking about something that, although it does impact everyone, has so far not been a big talking point
      • AntelopeSalad
        the community had options tho
      • they were/are using south for now
      • because that kickstarter's feature still isn't available today unless you use 1.7a
      • but how many people are using south today? almost everyone right?
      • TaiSHi
        AntelopeSalad: From what I've read around so it seems
      • mattmcc
        Who knows. It's popular, certainly, but there are other migration tools out there.
      • Though I think it's safe to say south 'won' a year or two ago.. :)
      • AntelopeSalad
        mattmcc: can you recommend another migration tool that's superior to south in every way?
      • besides the 1.7a implementation
      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: thanks for the help, i went with this: http://pastie.org/private/tu6cd7lqjfznxwjzrswkva
      • mattmcc
        No, why would that matter? People have different opinions, and therefore sometimes pick different tools.
      • AntelopeSalad
        it doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is migrations are something people find useful
      • FunkyBob
        never did ask freakboy if the app loading had any positive effects of reload times....
      • mattmcc
        But this, incidentally, is one path for new features in Django. They start life as a standalone app amongst other apps doing similar things, and over time the community ends up rallying behind one. Then it gets merged.
      • django-staticfiles, for example.
      • FunkyBob
        I mean, given you can simplify all your signal registering, and avoid get_model a lot...
      • AntelopeSalad
        what do you mean by app loading, is this another 1.7 change?
      • josePhoenix
        Is there a doc yet for migrating from south to new migrations in 1.7?
      • (migrate migrate migrate)
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      • AntelopeSalad
        mattmcc: how many years did it take for south to go from usable to being reimplemented into core?
      • mattmcc
        josePhoenix: There's a bit at the bottom of https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/mi...
      • AntelopeSalad
        if so many people wanted this feature why wasn't it implemented by the core team years ago too?
      • mattmcc
        AntelopeSalad: I don't recall. But 'getting into core' wasn't exactly the objective when south development began.
      • Oh, ffs.
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      • Because things don't have to be in the core to be useful.
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: because it wasn't needed in core
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      • AntelopeSalad
        no, but it seems to be improved upon now that's in core
      • FunkyBob
        in fact, the devs are quite reticent to add more contrib/ apps...
      • AntelopeSalad
        i read that kickstarter a few days ago, i think he mentioned there were limitations?
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: have you tried it? are you sure it's improved?
      • schinckel
        Indeed: within python itself, standard-lib is deemed to be 'where packages go to die'
      • AntelopeSalad
        i can reread
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      • schinckel
        (because updates to them are tied to the python releases)
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      • AntelopeSalad
        schinckel: i see that too, but i mean at this point it's a feature the community really really really wanted for years
      • FunkyBob
        schinckel: and the same goes for django.contrib
      • AntelopeSalad: and they had it
      • schinckel
        FunkyBob: My point exactly.
      • FunkyBob
        in South
      • AntelopeSalad
        but instead of the core devs saying "time to implement what the people want", we had to pay the south guy 30k
      • mattmcc
        It's arguable that south being rewritten and the rewrite becoming a core feature are completely separate.
      • FunkyBob
        south being rewritten was worth the 30k, IMHO
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      • mattmcc
        Andy could've just as easily said he was using the kickstarter to develop 'south 2' without even considering getting it into the core.
      • FunkyBob
        being merged into core was ... meh... well, it shut up the RoR people :P
      • AntelopeSalad
        i'm all for people getting paid to do what they love btw
      • i have nothing against that
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      • i just don't understand why such important features require being paid instead of the core team just doing it to improve the framework
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: you seem to want everything to go into core
      • AntelopeSalad
        it shouldn't take 2-3 years to implement something
      • mattmcc
        It didn't!
      • FunkyBob
        when, as a well designed _framework_ ... you can add stuff to it
      • AntelopeSalad
        unless it's something totally ridiculous in scope
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: you're missing the thing we keep putting forward
      • mattmcc
        The feature existed already, the community was using it.
      • schinckel
        It's not like the core devs are getting paid to work on django full time.
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: THINGS HAPPEN BECAUSE PEOPLE PUSH FOR THEM TO HAPPEN
      • Matt_P
        django - "Open source, BSD license"
      • wtf do you expect from opensource AntelopeSalad
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: if you want this to happen.. MAKE IT HAPPEN
      • schinckel
        The community decided to prioritise the development by paying Andrew to work on it full-time.
      • FunkyBob
        and whining in this channel probably isn't the right way
      • AntelopeSalad
        i wouldn't say i'm whining, i'm just trying to understand how django works internally for when it comes to feature implementation by the community
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      • Matt_P
        does ./manage.py have a drop db command ?
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: we told you
      • AntelopeSalad
        yeah, i have to pay people to get features into the framework, now i know
      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: It doesn't really need one, all the DB backends have it.
      • AntelopeSalad
        or... maybe someone will have a strong enough itch to do it for free
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: somebody wants something changed/fixed/added... they motivate someone to do the work... they convince the core devs it's worthy
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      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: itd be nice if syncdb had a drop-first arg :(
      • mattmcc
        AntelopeSalad: Oh please, you know that's nonsense.
      • AntelopeSalad
        btw FunkyBob, serious question about yesterday
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: nobody said you had to pay anyone, you twit
      • AntelopeSalad
        yesterday you said you rolled your own custom asset manager right?
      • FunkyBob
        that's just ONE option of how to motivate someone
      • AntelopeSalad
        why didn't you use a pre-existing solution?
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: now you seem to be trolling
      • Matt_P
        another option is to learn to code and do it for free AntelopeSalad !
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: I didn't... the rest of my team did... because they were idiots
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      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: Well, on backends that aren't mysql, 'the database' isn't necessarily just the thing Django talks to..
      • AntelopeSalad
        matt_c: swapping in code in real time is supposedly hard, it's probably out of my league in python atm
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: same reason they had to fuck up a lot of static files handling because they went with a broken CDN
      • AntelopeSalad: and so I pushed for 2 years for them to STOP using the broken thing, and REMOVE all the broken shit
      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: So dropping the whole thing probably isn't a good thing to make easily accessible to a Django CLI tool.
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      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: what do most devs do when they are constantly adding things to models ?
      • AntelopeSalad
        FunkyBob: ah
      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: Schema migrations?
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: itch to scratch
      • Matt_P
        ye mattmcc i guess south came up as an option for that
      • hence why i was thinking about it :P
      • AntelopeSalad
        asset management seems like another thing equal to south in usefulness but it seems like no one cares enough to make one that's perfect
      • FunkyBob
        (RackSpace's CDN wouldn't let us use the same domain name for HTTP and HTTPS... fucking insanity)
      • AntelopeSalad
        which baffles my mind
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: there's a number of projects for it...
      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: If you're a lone developer, you may get away without a migration tool, if you're very careful. For a team of >1, migrations are pretty important to preserving one's sanity.
      • FunkyBob
        which plug into the existing framework
      • AntelopeSalad
        yeah but they all have flaws FunkyBob
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: again, another point you like to ignore ... IT'S A FRAMEWORK... YOU CAN ADD/REMOVE BITS
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      • AntelopeSalad: what flaws?
      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: im just creating something from scratch and testing as I go!
      • mattmcc
        AntelopeSalad: Feel free to organize a consensus on what the "perfect" asset manager would do.
      • Matt_P
        by myself :P
      • FunkyBob
        did you log tickets about the flaws? did your propose solutions?
      • mattmcc
        In the mean time, there are several apps already that plenty of people are using. Maybe one day one of them will rise to the top and get merged, who knows.
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      • But since they're perfectly useful without being in the core, I wouldn't hold my breath.
      • FunkyBob
        AntelopeSalad: there's also several API libraries for Django... and a few that have "died off"...
      • so
      • mattmcc
        Matt_P: So if you're using sqlite, you can just rm my.database; manage.py syncdb.
      • FunkyBob
        1) there's no need for [and goods reasons agains] more stuff being added to core Django
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      • mattmcc
        Or dropdb, or mysqldrop, or whatever.
      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: how do most people expand their models during creation ? or do they try really really hard to create them exactly as needed on the first go
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      • FunkyBob
        2) if you want something changed, motivate people to change it [yes, money is _one_ motivator]
      • Matt_P
        mattmcc: i guess sqlite would have been better :P
      • but then id lose admin data :(